Wow! 101 messages: Is this a record?

This thread may soon be banished to the nether regions of this message board. I've not read all the posts, and have used the "Newest on top" Sort order. With that in mind, I would like to comment on the two most recent posts by Serendipidy and anymouse, respectively.

In particular, the following statements:

Serendipidy: "The reason there is no mention of twisting the body ( which is to bend curl or mishape) is because there isn't any."

anymouse: "The twist comes from turning hips and shoulders by different amounts."

I think both our esteemed contributors are meaning different things for the word "twist." It appears Serendipidy is referring more to unwarranted sway (or worse, "breaking of sides"), while anymous is referring to a differential in the amount of rotation of the hips and shoulders for promenade (and possibly also for the OP position). Both are correct, if those are their intended meanings.

nigelwee. "Last words by me on this is from Alex Moore who said. If a forward turn to the Right is made it is far more important to feel a forward swing of the Left side than a conscious twist of the body to the right".
If a twist becomes part of a persons dancing it can only be concerning CBM and CBMP.
" CBMP is a Foot Position.... Contrary Body Movement POSITION.
That leaves CBM. In CBM according to Moore " Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently. Therein lies the problem. When you break it down it couldn't go in another direction could it.
For me I am taught to drive the spine in the direction I am going. If for instance on the second and third step of a Reverse Turn in Foxtrot I introduced a twisting of the spine would I go back straight down the LOD with my third step or would I wander. Cheers
The main part of my argument has always been that the spine , which is our centre does not get twisted but remains as our driving force in the direction we are going.

First off, you are once again dismissing out of hand Jonathan's examples, which he described as including a body twist in the basic hold.

"CBMP is a Foot Position"

This is a classic case of the difference between the quite limited presentation in the book, and the much more involved reality of what a student is eventually trained to do by a live teacher.

Yes, CBMP is a foot position. But putting your foot in that position has an impact on the configuration of the torso! And when we step into the across in CBMP position of a promenade while keeping our upper body aligned to our partner, the necessity of some twist in our spine is impossible to ignore.

"That leaves CBM. In CBM according to Moore " Care must be taken not to turn the shoulders independently."

That does no mean that shoulders and hips will always turn in exact unison. I n fact, in the paragraph right before your quote Moore suggests that one might feel the movement of forwards turns initiated in the shoulder and that of backwards turns initiated in the hips. Or in more modern usage, reverse turns are commonly taught with the rotation of the lower body commencing a little sooner than that of the upper.

You must also give due consideration to Moore's stated concern: "or an ugly dipping movement will result". If a dancer under their teacher's skillful guidance incorporates an appropriate degree of spinal twist in assorted places and does not suffer an "ugly dipping movement" then they must not be committing the particular fault that Moore was warning about.

"For me I am taught to drive the spine in the direction I am going."

Me too - but drive and rotation are two different variables. There's a far simpler-to-apply rule for keeping them in proportion: if you are moving forward, your forward movement must be great enough in comparison to your rotation that no part of your body is allowed to move backwards in space. If that occurs, and perhaps your left hand goes backwards then your rotation has overwhelmed your movement,

"The main part of my argument has always been that the spine , which is our centre does not get twisted but remains as our driving force in the direction we are going."

And the main reality of dancing has always been that the spine does twist in many situations, even as it drives forward.

You can refuse to learn about this aspect of dancing for the rest of your life if that's what you choose, but the rest of us are happy to keep learning such details from the best teachers.

Lets bring some perspective to the discussion.

Always remember , much of the advanced theories, are just that-- THEORIES .

As Scrivener put it, there can be no absolute technique .

To be dogmatic about an idea, suggests that " this way ", is the only way .

I suspect I have been teaching longer than before most of you were born.

I was trained by the ones who trained the ones, who trained the ones, who trained the ones, you give as references .

What you state, in some cases, may again evolve into a new paradigm ( as I have learned ).

Dance is OPINION in many cases .

Choose what suits your situation , and amend it as necessary .


One last quote from Len-- " Too much rise is as bad as too little " .

A good metaphor to consider .

Some of the writters out there seem to me to be using words and changing the meaning. Body torque does not mean twist. Torque means a force that tends to cause rotation. Rotation you can have and need. But to turn your top half to a different angle to your bottom half by twisting your spine is not neccessary. Go and ask your Physio how sensible that is.

Alright lets get this clear-- torque is an action that is created by rotation against a STATIONARY point --

as in-- place the feet ( foot )in a fixed position, and rotate the body from the ANKLE(S )upwards to the desired degree , in an opposite direction (L or R ) .

Terence. You never used the word twist

And I NEVER will ( except in Nat. twist turn ).

The main problem for many students when being taught advanced concepts, is (a ) bad explanation by the teacher.

or ( b) a mis-understanding of same by the student .

This is a great discussion:
Let's not get hung up by what 'torque' actually means. The discussion is about whether the upper and lower torso are rotated by differing amounts - i.e is the shouder line always the same as the hip line. Isn't this what we're discussing?
there was reference a little while back to there not being any evidence of this in the foxtrot videos on this site. But there is. And clearly so. In the feather step, Jonathan has his shoulder line beautifully rotated as he dances outside his partner. His hips are not rotated to the same extent. Hence the 'twist' that we're talking about. Torque, being strictly a force, is the force exerted by his muscles to make this happen. But the effect could be called twist.
Try this experiment. Keep your feet pointing to the 12 o'clock position. Rotate to the 1 o'clock position (30 degrees). Hips and shoulders rotated by same amount - Yes. (of course there's a twist somewhere but it's 'lost in the ankles and legs).
Now rotate your shoulders to 2 o'clock, which is the sort of rotation jonathan is using (actually, i think he's 2.30, but never mind). Are your hips at 2 o'clock?. I doubt it. But if they are, could you dance forward with your feet still aligned at 12 o'clock. Not a chance.

I do not believe one can dismiss so lightly understanding cause and effect .

Therein lies the problem with most theoretical exercises .

If the foundation is not delineated, then an incorrect result may occur .